Myth, Reality, and Propaganda about The Thailand Girl Scene

| May 23, 2010 | 27 Comments | 47,259 views

In this recent article, in Conducive Chronicle,  Eryn-Ashlei Bailey puts forwards three characterizations about one segment of The Thailand Girl Scene – The Reservation GoGo’s and Bars.

Speak Out About the Promotion of Sex Trafficking in Higher Education

Her depiction of The Thailand Girl Scene was challenged by two frequent commenters on the Bangkok Blogs-MongerSEA and DaMan.

Personally, I think MongerSEA and DaMan hit it right on the head– not surprising because they are both long time Thailand residents.  Their comments accurately describe reality in Thailand and Ms. Baily just showed that she has never been to or bothered to actually see first hand what she is pontificating about.

The same observation could be made about many of the people who commented negatively about the now deleted content on BigBabyKenny.com. Their comments and characterizations make it clear they never bothered to actually read what was written on BigBabyKenny.com before they expressed their opinion.

That is what the marketplace of ideas is all about—open debate where the smoke blowers and bullshitters are exposed and the truth wins out.

————————————————————————————————

Ms. Bailey’s first characterization is to claim the Thailand Girl Scene and specifically, the bars and clubs of The Reservation are primarily about child prostitution:

Sex tourism is a euphemism for the practice of foreigners traveling to other countries to buy sex. For many Johns, the popularity of sex tourism is to get what can’t be easily procured in their own countries; sex with children. Prostitution is the oldest profession and some feminists argue that it is a system that is inherently built upon the subjugation of women. Prostitution, or sex work, is a means for women and men who use their bodies to generate income. They may be driven to this industry out of financial need, especially in developing countries such as Thailand and Cambodia.

Ms. Bailiey’s second contention is that the girls who are working in Reservation bars and clubs are actually slaves— captured by slavers, forcibly transported to The Reservation, and are not completely free to leave the bar or club if the terms of employment are not acceptable to them.

Human trafficking differs from conventional sex work because the element of deception and or coercion. The term trafficking actually means transporting a person across state or country lines illegally. Trafficked humans are smuggled across borders and forced to work. Sex traffickers are very crafty because they will take their cargo and make them work in countries where they have little connections, chances to escape, and often where they don’t even speak the language. This phenomenon has been described in newspapers and films. The movie “Human Trafficking” described how traffickers will take a victims passport after they are smuggled into the country. This way, the victims are afraid to escape the brothel or denizen where they are forced into sex work.

Ms. Bailey’s third contention is that the girls working in Reservation bars and clubs are routinely beaten and physically abused by the club owners if they do not have sex with customers.

Sex workers in the brothel are often subjected to severe beatings if they disobey brothel rules. Some pimps go so far as addicting the victims to illicit substances to keep their livestock from running away. If a sex worker is addicted to a drug, there is lesser chance that s/he will try to escape. If these drug addicted workers are rescued by sting operations, then they will often return to the brothel because the place where they are exploited is the same place that supplies them drugs.

All three of these characterization were first challenged by a frequent commenter on the Bangkok Blogs- MongerSEA. MongerSEA writes:

This article is so poorly researched and written it becomes indistinguishable from the dreck Professor Ng foists upon the world.

Fact: the vast majority of establishments patronized by Western sex consumers have adult providers who are present of their own free will and have not been trafficked or coerced.

Fact: the greatest consumers, by far, of sexual service from Thai minors are Thais themselves.

Fact: when Westerners consume sexual services from Thai minors, these are almost exclusively homosexual men.

Fact: the foreign consumers of sexual services from Thai minor females are almost exclusive North Asians: Japanese, Taiwanese and South Koreans.

Fact: the Royal Thai Police find it to be quite the cash cow to arrest pedophiles, accept bribes, and release the individuals concerned before charges are filed.

Fact: the Royal Thai Police actively protect some pedophile clubs for monthly cash payments.

And in a second comment after the source for his “facts” is questioned, MongerSEA responds to Miss Bailey questioning his bonafides:

My source is the very thing you lack: practical, long-term experience on the ground in Thailand and other parts of South-East Asia.

If you are citing as your primary sources American television programmes — sufficiently sanitized for broadcast and sufficiently sensationalized to attract an audience — then you’ve already lost the battle over sources.

And what’s more, you don’t seem to be capable of recognizing the fact that statements from NGOs will always be slanted so as to justify the existence of the organization, and that authors will always want to find academic justification and/or sell books. Nobody benefits from a statement that “it’s not that big of a problem” (and I refer specifically to white men buying sexual services from adult Asian women who become providers of those services of their own free will).

So the outcome is invariably what you have pounced on, the facts be damned: That all activities such as I describe parenthetically above must inevitably be conflated with sex with minors and trafficking. It just isn’t so.

Walk into any Thai beer bar or gogo bar which services a primarily white heterosexual clientele and you’ll find, on average, zero cases of anyone being compelled to be there. The girls have sufficient alternate choices for employment appropriate to their generally meagre educations. They simply want more material goos like clothes and cell phones than they can obtain taking a job in a factory plucking chickens, boxing shrimp, assembling disposable lighters or any of the typical employments of the Thai underclass.

My credibility is not staked on the provability of my claims to you. I have acquaintances in law enforcement, private investigations and bar ownership who will all bear out what I’ve written.

But if you must have proof, you can do the research yourself. Take a ten-year sample of online reports from local newspapers in Pattaya, Phuket or Chiang Mai, and please note that the vast majority of arrests for pedophilia involve Western homosexuals. Then determine how many actually result in convictions. You won’t find many arrests of Westerners for preying on underaged females, and you’ll find nothing related to Asian men at all, save the odd disgraced Thai monk.

You’ve swallowed a bill of goods, you’re just parroting what you’ve been taught and what you what you want to believe to be true. And you are perpetuating the nonsense that any appreciable part of the white male populace has any sexual contact with minor females or would even want to. Every time a pederast gets busted in Thailand, the first people to condemn him, and those who do so most strongly, are the participants in the dozen or so internet forums dedicate to the life of the sex-tourist and “sex-pat” in Asia.

We have a moral center, as much as you’d like to deny it. We hate people that hurt kids. And we resent your knee-jerk and brain-dead conflation of issues involving children and trafficking with our relationships with consenting, adult providers of sexual services.

Another frequent commenter from the Bangkok Blog Scene, DaMan, also challenges Miss Bailey’s characterizations of The Thailand Girl Scene:

Put me down with MongerSEA. As someone who has been visiting and or living in Thailand for seven or so years now, I have to say this article is one of the most poorly researched pieces I’ve read in a long time.

The moment anybody even attempts to say that the girls working the bar scene in Thailand are forced to be there, they lose all credibility. Because the truth of the matter is exactly what MongerSEA said, they’re in it for the money. There are millions of young women all over Thailand employed in “normal” jobs. Some work in factories, some work as a clerk in the big department stores, some are maids, some work at 7-11. That’s what’s available to these girls.

But those jobs pay about 7000 baht ($215 USD) per month. Women working in the bars make a salary of around 5000 baht ($150) per month, plus they get 50 baht for every drink a guy buys for them. On top of that they get to pocket 100% of any fees they negotiate with a customer for sex.

So, do the math, a girl who works in the bar can make as much money as a girl working 9 – 5 by going with just one customer (about 2000 baht for all night). If she can land one a week, she’s making about 13,000 baht per month. That’s probably on the low end of what someone with a university degree would get as a starting salary fresh out of school. Plus, we’re not even talking about the lady drinks.

My girlfriend grew up with a girl who works as a cashier in a “regular” bar (i.e. no go-go, no shows, just a plain old bar) so we stop in there from time to time and have a drink or two. Her friend has boasted getting as many as 35 lady drinks in one night. That’s not a normal but I’ve seen the book open when they do the weekly payouts of the lady drinks and I would say 1500 – 2000 baht per week is about the average per girl.

So, that’s 13,000 plus another 8,000 for a total of 21,000 baht per month. That’s about what a university educated woman would get with a few years of experience under her belt would get paid.

Now, here’s the kicker . . . the girl working at 7-11 still finds a way to send 2000 baht per month home to her family. The bar girls might send 3000 and the rest they blow on mobile phones, clothes, eating, etc.

So, is she working in the bar because of poverty? No. She’s working in the bar because there simply isn’t any other way for her to make that kind of income given her lack of education.

And are they forced to be there? Again, I have to laugh. Try getting one out of the bar scene. There are countless guys around the world who think that the 30,000 or 40,000 baht per month that they’re sending to their Thai girlfriend is insurance that she won’t have to work in the bar anymore. Nope. In fact, chances are she’s got maybe 2 or 3 guys who all think they’re exclusive, all sending money, and all think she’s quit working in the bar. Yet, there she is in the bar every night looking to score new customers.

There really isn’t a pimp system in Thailand. Sure, you might have some deadbeat Thai husband who lets his wife work in the foreigner bars so he can sit around and get drunk all day but the vast majority of these girls have no boss to pay other than their own desire for the latest and greatest fashion and gadgets.

And if you want to ask about sources . . . I can take you to any go-go in Thailand and you can see for yourself. That’s what makes your article so ridiculous. I know lots of girls who either currently work or used to work in the bars. Buy them a meal and treat them like a normal human being and they’ll tell you everything you ever wanted to know about the business.

A few years back some woman (I think her name was Suki Falconberg or something like that) wrote an article talking about how most of the women in Pattaya were underage. Even female Thais that deplore the sex trade and hate sex tourists called her on her bullsh*t. She claimed to be an expert because like your author she had been forced into prostitution. She had never even been to Thailand yet she claimed to know everything about the Thai sex industry.

With experts like that, it’s no wonder why so many people get such a distorted view of what it’s about.

I have to agree with MongerSEA and DaMan.

I have been all over the Thailand Girl Scene and the child prostitution, human trafficking, and coercion, Miss Bailey claims, are just not there.

Miss Bailey’s description of The Thailand Girl Scene is a cartoon fantasy not reality.

The real questions Miss Bailey leaves unanswered are:

1. Have she ever been to Thailand?

2. And if she did visit Thailand did  she ever bother to actually go down to The Reservation and see what she is talking about?

The answer, obvious to everyone who has visited Thailand and has any experience in The Thailand Girl Scene is …… no way!

BigBabyKenny

P.S. Ms. Bailey also claims  BigBabyKenny “has chosen to defend himself on the grounds of freedom of speech, which he is entitled to by the First Amendment Rights of the Constitution.” If she bothered to actually read BigBabyKenny.com that is not the grounds on which I defend BigBabyKenny.com— A Response to the Asian American and Women’s Studies Department.

Comments (27)

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  1. Harry Zink says:

    I like my ducky.

  2. BBK says:

    Just thought I would update this post with some more information.

    This was posted by John in the comments of the Conducive Chronicle Article after this post, Myths, Reality, and Propoganda about The Thailand Girl Scene, was published on BigBabyKenny.com.

    Like it says in this post:

    The real questions Miss Bailey leaves unanswered are:

    1. Have she ever been to Thailand?

    2. And if she did visit Thailand did  she ever bother to actually go down to The Reservation and see what she is talking about?

    The answer, obvious to everyone who has visited Thailand and has any experience in The Thailand Girl Scene is …… no way!

    BigBabyKenny

    ———————————————————————————–

    I wonder how many other websites are there that are similar to Ng’s “bigbabykenny.com”? Putting a stop to this one is just a start.

    Oh, there are hundreds of other sites.

    Kenny’s site was just the worst of them.

    And by “worst” I mean that, like the above article by Ms. Bailey, it was poorly researched and poorly written, and that it made claims about Thailand that simply didn’t match reality.

    Often Kenny spotted one fact, and used it to support wildly inaccurate claims about Thailand. I notice that Ms. Bailey, when her sources were questioned, decided to educate us, much in the manner of Professor Ng:

    Fact: Somaly Mam is what researchers call a primary resource. She was forced into sex slavery after she was sold by a man she called her grandfather.

    I took a moment to click on the link to the article entitled The Herstory of Somaly Mamhttp://cchronicle.com/2010/03/the-herstory-of-somaly-mam/) because I was interested in reading the story of this Thai woman who had been sold into sex slavery where she was abused by Western men in Bangkok. (

    To my surprise, the “herstory” of Somaly Mam begins in Cambodia. I read the article, waiting to get to the part where she was forced across the border into Thailand, but it never came.

    So, yes, Somaly Mam is what researchers call a primary source, but not about prostitution in Thailand.

    No problem. The movie “Human Trafficking” was quoted as a source in the article. I’m sure that must have graphic scenes of women in chains in Thailand, interviews with the prostitutes and film of police breaking into local Thai brothels and arresting the evil human traffickers.

    I clicked on the hyperlink, which took me to the “My Lifetime Video Website”. Unable to locate the movie there, I used Google and found a made-for-television movie that was released in 2005. Not a documentary, but, okay; maybe it’ll have some really good information about human trafficking in Thailand.

    I read the synopses from two different websites. They mention the Czech Republic, the Ukraine, New York, Russia, Romania and the Philippines, but surprisingly, not Thailand. By the way, the IMDb site gives the movie 7.5 stars (out of 10).

    Perhaps you can cite this movie as a source for human trafficking, but, apparently not for Thailand.

    Ms. Bailey offers very much the same thing that Professor Ng offered on his site – bad information and conclusions supported by the wrong facts.

    No one denies that human trafficking, pedophilia or child prostitution exist. They do.

    But somehow Ms. Bailey makes huge leaps from sources like Somaly Mam and the movie Human Trafficking to make claims that prostitutes in Thailand servicing white foreigners are primarily underage minors, trafficked (brought illegally across the border), working in brothels under a system akin to slavery, where their passports are taken away, they are threatened and beaten, doped up and subjected to psychological abuse.

    For anyone that has ever seen or met Thai prostitutes who service foreigners this is laughable.

    If Ms. Bailey really wants to know the truth about prostitutes servicing western men in Thailand, I can direct her to a specific address where she can meet and talk to hundreds of primary sources that will directly contradict nearly every “fact” she has offered in the above “article”.

    I wonder how many other un-researched articles spreading misinformation about Thai prostitution there are? Identifying this one was just a start.

    —————————————————————————–

    I’m absolutely uninterested in hearing from your other “primary sources” that will justify the sexual exploitation of women in a third world country.

    Are you really so dull-witted that you don’t understand that the reference to primary sources meant that you could talk to Thai prostitutes themselves?

    Don’t you get tired of embarrassing yourself in front of a worldwide audience?

    Unlike you, I am interested in understanding the facts and how they support your claims, so I read your the fact sheet.

    It certainly paints some grim pictures about trafficking, though there is nothing in it that would support your linkage to Prostitutes servicing foreigners travelling to Bangkok as a result of reading Professor Ng’s site. It does a great deal to describe the trafficking of children and adults out of Thailand, which is clearly not affected by Professor Ng’s writing.

    Of the descriptions of trafficking into Thailand, the numbers quoted were said to be unreliable, and they were very low. The discussion of how women and children trafficked into Thailand were treated included being locked into brothels and forced to provide sexual services.

    If you have ever read Professor Ng’s site you would be aware, I’m sure, that he never described or promoted any brothels at all, and certainly nothing that fits this description of sexual slavery.

    His focus was often on bars, nightclubs and other entertainment venues, and while he discussed prostitution as part of his website, he also discussed strategies for meeting, dating and even marrying Thai women, often describing university-educated women with responsible jobs as ideal wives.

    I find your statement that says that you are “absolutely uninterested” in hearing points of view that are opposed to your own to be amazingly myopic and close-minded. I would have thought that you would want to understand as much information as you could in order to better understand an issue in which you seem to have so much interest.

    You seem to be as unfamiliar with Professor Ng’s writing as you are with the facts of prostitution, trafficking and pedophilia in Thailand as they relate to servicing western men.

    I wouldn’t necessarily encourage you to read Professor Ng’s blog, but I do encourage you to educate yourself by making the trip to Bangkok and meeting the women you wish to protect. It would be a mind-opening experience for you.

     

  3. Dr Love says:

    I wouldn’t necessarily encourage you to read Professor Ng’s blog” – What nonsense! How else can I keep in contact with my best friend Daffy?

    You-hoo Daffy, I see you there at the top of the comments list 🙂 BBK has done his best to hide you with his gazillion word essay (marks off BBK, the question clearly says “state in 500 words or less” !!). In contrast Daffy to your immense girth, your replies are really tiny (tee-hee)

  4. BBK says:

    A couple of comments about the debate occurring in the comments on the Conducive Chronicle Website.

    Speak Out About the Promotion of Sex Trafficking in Higher Education

    ——————————————————————-

    First, the following quotes which Ms. Bailey attributes to me are not from BigBabyKenny.com. I never wrote them.

    My memory might be bad but I don’t think any of the commenters on BigBabyKenny.com wrote them either.

    “That’s fine on the face of it, but there’s no need to stop there. Why pay at all when a bit of creative thinking and a little sensitivity to the realities of life in Troubled Thailand can have you pulling virtual freebies?”

    This quote from you blog indicates that the author is aware of “troubled Thailand” meaning the economic devastation and political unrest. This quote is clearly alluding to manipulative tactics as a means of procuring sex acts without paying for it

    This quote is evermore appalling:

    “Just imagine how well it’s going to play if you round up a passel of these sun-burnt, rustic firebrands and offer them the hospitality of your hotel suite. The enticements of a shower, clean towels, a soft bed (things you are paying for anyway and might as well leverage!) should prove irresistible.”

    The author is clearly preying off of the economic and social disadvantage of Thai women. This person is either a Westerner or someone not currently residing in Thailand because of the mention of a hotel suite. There are clear racial overtones in the words “Sun-burnt rustic firebrands”. This further posits that the writer is not “sun-burnt” but is white in color.

    Absolutely shocking quote:

    “Consider that just dropping off even a few bottles of drinking water and a couple of bags of sticky rice and mango or fried insects might get you some discrete oral service in a quiet corner of the bunker.”

    ———————————————————-

    Second, Ms. Bailey hasn’t adressed the points made by Da Man and John.– all of which are central to her thesis and call for action.

    Specifically:

    I’ve read Kenny’s stuff before and really, compared to what most sexpats/sex-tourists write, it was pretty tame. Actually, much of his content was focused on getting away from the prostitution scene. He was often ridiculed by readers of The Big Mango website for suggesting that you should dress up, present yourself well, etc in order to meet better women.

    But somehow Ms. Bailey makes huge leaps from sources like Somaly Mam and the movie Human Trafficking to make claims that prostitutes in Thailand servicing white foreigners are primarily underage minors, trafficked (brought illegally across the border), working in brothels under a system akin to slavery, where their passports are taken away, they are threatened and beaten, doped up and subjected to psychological abuse.

    If you have ever read Professor Ng’s site you would be aware, I’m sure, that he never described or promoted any brothels at all, and certainly nothing that fits this description of sexual slavery.

    His focus was often on bars, nightclubs and other entertainment venues, and while he discussed prostitution as part of his website, he also discussed strategies for meeting, dating and even marrying Thai women, often describing university-educated women with responsible jobs as ideal wives.

    ————————————————————–
    Finally, Ms. Bailey is begging the real question.

    If she is really so concerned about child prostitution, trafficking, and sex slavery in Thailand and really wanted to do something about it, shouldn’t she be writing the powers that allow such things to occur and continue.

    Let me give you a hint, they aren’t in the United States.

    Why not send a petition to the Thai Police, the Thai Politicians, and write letters to the two main Thai newspapers?

    Seems the obvious course of action to me.

    BigBabyKenny

  5. Werewolf says:

    The initial quotes were from the MongerSEA site, not BBK.com.
    He (MongerSEA) replied to her comments about them by basically pointing out that she is a humourless woman, unable to recognize satire when she sees it.

  6. BBK says:

    Werewolf,

    I didn’t know MongerSEA had his own site.

    Do yo have the URL?

    BigBabyKenny

  7. drummy says:

    chai yo!!!

  8. Hammer says:

    Stop the sensrship in America

  9. EXTRA NEWSFLASH says:

    After his double dip session with Prufrock, Kenny overheard saying, “I Kissed An Old Man….And I Liked It”

  10. Sizzler the Rudeboy says:

    I always thought Prufrock was a flaming homo. But Kenny?

    Say it ain’t so.

    Fucktards one and all.

  11. Kenny B Mybitch says:

    He’s been that way for a very long time. When have you ever seen him with a girl? Closest thing to it was a Ladyboy?

  12. Dr. Dick says:

    If I had a micro dick I wouldn’t want to be seen with him either. If I had friends like Prufrock, the sick canucklehead, I’d be in hiding too.

  13. Kenny B Mybitch says:

    Don’t blame Prufrock for Kenny’s stupidity. There’s a reason Kenny writes this garbage.

    What that reason is? Ehhh, haven’t got the slightest idea.

  14. Been There Done That says:

    The micro penis story on Kenny’s secret reincarnation of his v1.0 blog is hilarious. I would give you the URL but then it wouldn’t be a secret then woud it.

  15. crickets says:

     

    chiiiiiiiirp, chiiiiiiirp, chiiiiiirp, chiiiiiirp, chiiiiiiirp, chiiiiiiirp!!

     

  16. crickets says:

    chirp, yawn, chirp

  17. crickets says:

    myth, reality, and propaganda …. chiiiirp, chiiiirp, chiiiiiiiirp, chiiiiiiirp!

  18. crickets says:

    Fabrications, Fabrications, Fabrications … chiiiiirp, chiiiiiirp, chiiiirp, chiiiiiiirp, chiiiiirp, chiiiiiiiirp!!
    chiiiiirp, chiiiiiirp, chiiiirp, chiiiiiiirp, chiiiiirp, chiiiiiiiirp!!
    chiiiiirp, chiiiiiirp, chiiiirp, chiiiiiiirp, chiiiiirp, chiiiiiiiirp, chiiiiirp, chiiiiiirp, chiiiirp, chiiiiiiirp, chiiiiirp, chiiiiiiiirp!! 

  19. PRUFROCK'S DAD says:

    It’s over PRUFROCKyou’re irrelevant!HAHAHA HEHEHE HOHOHO! 

  20. PRUFROCK'S DAD says:

    It’s over PRUFROCKyou’re irrelevant!

    HAHAHA HEHEHE HOHOHO! 

  21. crickey says:

    chiiiirp, chiiiirp, chiiiirp, chiiiirp, chiiiirp, chiiiirp!! chiiiirp, chiiiirp, chiiiirp, chiiiirp, chiiiirp, chiiiirp!!
    HAHAHA HEHEHE HOHOHO

  22. Purple Avenger says:

    Purple girl scene!

  23. Purple Avenger says:

    Purple fresh produce!

  24. Purple Avenger says:

    Purple mythology!

  25. SWSM is Kenny Speak For Street Walker Super Market Whores Hookers Prostitutes for Sex Tourists says:

    Bring that sex tourism content back!

    “All to serve the higher purpose of getting laid better, cheaper, and more efficiently.”

  26. Informer says:

    Kenny,

    This sounds like it could be one of your ex-girlfriends.

    http://thaitrafficking.wordpress.com/category/bangkok/

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